Toronto Photography Meetup Group

I'm just starting with strobe and I was wondering if anyone could give me some pointers with equipment. Currently, I'm armed with a a set of Cowboy Studio NPT-04's, 430EXIIs, and a pair of light stands - with just one off-brand umbrella swivel/adapter (no handle?) and a hotshoe on top.

I'm kind of mixed up about the attachments that go on top of the stands, and I'm not sure what to buy - I've seen different setups...the adapter that I have, kinds with handles, clamps, spigot+hotshoe combos - it goes on.

What do I need to start up? Spigots? Clamps? Adapters? I just want to get some practice in - in a way where I can be sure my equipment is secure (i.e. flash units don't jump off and land in pieces) - and I'm past the point of creating setups using shelves and chairs. I'm on a student budget, but I don't mind spending a bit above the absolute minimum on something that can last a good few years.

I'm also looking to get some umbrellas soon, and I'll likely be looking to eBay to remain financially conscious - what differentiates low-end umbrellas from high-end ones?

Thanks

I just bought some decent umbrella's from Merkle which can be used with hot lights or strobes... And they have a removable white interior / silver reflector. They were roughly $40 ea.

As for lighting accessories.... Start with the basics. Learn to master using a single strobe and reflector, and work your way up. Keep it simple.

I was wondering about the mounts - or rather attachments - for the flashes that I'm using - anything to secure them.

Any suggestions?

Durability and reliability seem to be directly related to price. If your doing test shots in your home you will require a different level of reliability than someone who is shooting professionally and may be dealing with windy location shoots and lots of tear-downs. I would recommend going to a camera store and looking at the mounts first hand. Look for the best you can afford. There is nothing worse than having to deal with cheap grip equipment when your under the gun.

Once you find what you want, shop online! In the entry level price range there are limitless knockoff's. I have found $30 flash modifiers from Henrys for $1 (shipping included) on eBay.

The flip side is if your looking for high end pro-quality grip like Kupo or Manfroto (studio quality grip). The in store price may be better value. Its usually comparable to online prices and you won't have to worry about shipping and duty.

How often do you plan on taking your gear down? Where do you plan on having your gear mount to? What type of stands do you have?

I agree, if you can, play with the stuff first. Most of the time, you can see and feel the difference between good and bad.
If the difference between "tried, tested, and true" such as Manfrotto, and the "knock-offs" like Kupo are only 30%, then
you need to think about how frequent you will handle the thing, what you want to mount to it.
I'll reference manfrotto stuff, you can lookup the copy cats...
Essentials like the 035 SuperClamps, I think places like vistek only differ by $10 compared to knock off. Is $10 (couple beers)
worth peace of mind? There are functional design differences if you look for them... aside from build quality.
Spigots on the other hand... brass is brass is brass, it will fit or it won't. $13 difference on a $10 item, is silly, especially when you
need many of them because they are so easy to loose.

The 035 clamps in a studio equipment box is like batteries for your camera. You can attach them to almost anything, and then
attach almost anything to them. They have multiple anchoring points for spigots or other threaded components, and incredibly
strong when required. They can pinch onto a piece of paper, or hold two pieces of wood together as your glue sets.

Keep in mind, the clamps are only part of the equation, like spigots, and arms, and booms, and spring clips. Different brands
can be intermixed. Start with a couple clamps. Then see where you can clamp to in your shooting area. Then decide if you need
long extension arms (D700B) or shorter articulating ones(143)... to suit your needs.
Manfrotto products have been around since the dinosaurs... there's always someone selling something... save that way.
Don't save a couple bucks here, only to worry about your gear there.

Google "strobist 101" and follow the blog through all the pages (each Next discusses various gear). There is good beginner advice, and they focus first on understanding needs and usage. Overall the site focuses on portability, ease of use and affordability.

I've bought umbrella adapters from ebay before, some really cheap from about $8 each, and some more expensive. I believe this is what you're asking about. There are various ways of attaching to a light stand, some have little screw in base spigot in case you're using a tripod instead of a light stand, some have click locks at the various angles and some are just held on by friction so might droop. On the top part, some of them have a spigot that attaches to a cold shoe, some of them are directly attached to a permanent cold shoe. The cheap ones are made of plastic with permanent cold shoe, it's a hard plastic but it's still plastic so I had some questions about how long it would last. I eventually got another made of plastic and some metal parts where the metal shoe could be removed, and finally one made of all metal. It's not just about durability, but I found the all-metal one clamped down more solidly, whereas the plastic ones could easily swivel or even droop unexpectedly.

Anyways, long story short, spend the extra $$ and get all metal ones, otherwise you'll have a couple cheap plastic ones on the shelf doing nothing like I do! lol I guess that's the same advice for most photography equipment though

there is a store in the gta that sells lighting stuff at real reasonable prices
i just got
two 8ft heavey duty light stands
two speedlight adapters
3 umbrellas
a background stand 10x12 ( two stands and cross bar ) carry bag
all for 190
if you would like info let me know
they have strobes and adapters constant lighting and other studio lighting stuff

What's the store?

+1, I'm in desperate need of light stands!

Do tell, I need lotsa lighting stuff!

lol ok i can tell ya all iu ask is you tell them that i sent you rob the guy in the mobility scooter
gtaphotostudio.com
he has two locations one in miss and one in toronto
his name is tony

Has anyone tried the continuous lighting being sold here - or anywhere. I don't think that they are comparable to strobe lights in terms of wattage. Florescent doesn't have the range that a comparable wattage strobe has.

So you got that price because you're a friend or we can go there and negotiate with the guy? I just tried pricing what you listed above and it's more than $190!

you can bargain with the guy depending on how much you are buying i got the list stuff without the background stand of 99 he may balk a lil so maybe 110-120 as a new customer its up to you
but i did bargain with him
dont forget you will pay a lil more than online since he has a brick and mortar
and you get to see and feel product before buying
he likes cash
and NO he is not a friend
i hate paying retail lol

Are you talking about fluorescent only or are you including halogen worklights that a lot of people start with? Halogen is brighter but it burns hot, i.e., you better have some good fans or AC in that room because it gets warm quickly! Also most fluorescent is not dimmable so it's either on or off and you can only adjust the distance or try to put ND filters or such, so if you want something one or two stops lower than another, you'll have to figure out how to do that other than with a dimmable switch. Halogen can be dimmed. Anyways fluorescent is not particularly bright especially once you add modifiers etc, so it's better to look at continuous lighting setups with two or more bulbs per light source. In that case, make sure you can control the bulbs independently so you can for example, have just one bulb on or two bulbs, whatever you choose, not just all bulbs on with one switch because then you'll be unscrewing bulbs to change brightness. The one advantage of continuous though, is that you can "see" the light and where it's going.

Anyways once you start talking about multi bulb set ups with independent controls etc, you're almost up to the cost of buying one of those cheap ebay monolights, which I've seen for about $50 bucks shipped (that website that Rob sent has some cheap ones for $70 bucks), so you should consider that as well...

At one point I bought a set of slave bulbs from ebay ($20 bucks each I think?) that screw into the sockets of those fluorescent bulb holders. They provide more power, but again, you can't control the output. After a while I decided to spring for actual monolights, they were still just cheap ebay ones, but at least I could control the output level which is more handy than you'd realize until you try without it. I'd suggest skipping those slave bulbs and fluorescent setups for this very reason, but YMMV.

A set of 5 florescent bulbs are not effective beyond 5 feet, so at that cost, a flash unit would be much better, but you would have to use batteries. Halogens take a lot of power and you could be popping fuses in the house to get the light you need. I don't think its worth buying a strobe light that is less than 500ws and a kit of 2 strobes starts around $600. I would be interested in hearing people's experiences.

I'm not sure if everyone needs 500ws or higher--what kind of aperture are you trying to hit and why? I have a set of strobes 180ws each that when turned down to about 1/4 I'm still getting about f5.6-6.3 at iso100 firing into a softlighter-type 43" umbrella at about 5 feet away. I've never turned it up past that, because I don't really need everything including the backdrop in focus, I've done groups of up to 5, and at that power level it recycles pretty much instantly. YMMV.

Also the Alien Bees B400 and B800 monolights sell very well and they are 160ws and 320ws respectively, but it seems like a lot of people are doing fine with these. What is your use that would require 500ws and higher?

Basically 180watts is 2 light bulbs unless 180watt-seconds gives a lot more light output than 180watts. If they are the same, I could just use some home lights without spending the kind of money on strobes at home. I've only used professional strobes in studio settings so I've never been able to compare low ws strobes to regular lighting. Of course the specs provided by manufacturers for florescent, halogen and strobes don't help with the comparison. Some give watts, watt-seconds, lumens and lux and they may not be directly comparable. I'm currently using a remote flash at home. Your 180ws strobe gives about the same output as my portable flash. So I wouldn't buy a 180ws strobe for that reason. Its on the occasion that I need the extra power and recycle time, then neither the flash nor a 180ws strobe would do. A 320ws strobe is still considered a beginners strobe. The output is reachable with conventional means. The question is will there be a need to upgrade in the future? Only when we step up to 500watt bulbs that it gets tricky for home wiring + the heat. 500ws is the beginning of the professional range. When I do a shoot with models, I take about 250 pictures in 2 hours. Given that there are breaks in between, that's much more than 1 every 30 seconds. A beginners strobe would not hold up.

I didn't know the answer, but I googled and found this:
http://webs.lanset.com/rcochran/flash/hotorstrobe.html

So basically, to get an equivalent of a 500ws monolight (second table in the link): if you want to use 1/60s exposure, you'd need a continuous light source of 30,000 watts. If you want to use 1/125s, you'd need 62,500 watts. You would probably burn your house down building something like that...

My 180ws strobe recycles instantly at that power level, are you saying your speedlite at 1/8 to 1/4 power going into a 43" softlighter (which is a silver bounce umbrella with a white diffuser in front) at 5 feet away from the subject gives you f5.6-6.3 at iso100 and is recycling instantaneously and can continue to do that for an hour or more?? I don't remember my speedlight being that powerful through that umbrella, although I haven't used it like that for a while, also my recycle time would get longer and longer as the batteries lose their charge... but I could be remembering my settings incorrectly.

FYI a Canon 580ex (I think it's the equivalent to the Nikon SB-800??) is about 60-70ws (or 100ws according to another person in that link?) and the light spread is narrower than what you get with a monolight so to fill that umbrella you'd need to diffuse it even more???:
http://photo.net/photography-lighting-e ... rum/00EZNc

Reading some more, Watts is joules/second and Watt-Seconds is joules, so I'm not sure the lanset article is doing the proper conversion since they measure different things. Also one manufacturers strobe rated at 500ws maybe different from another since the measurement is not the light output or the rating of the strobe tube, like a regular light bulb, but the energy the capacitor can store to fire the strobe. One strobe tube could be so inefficient that it produces more heat than light. It's hard to believe that 10 x 100 watt light bulbs produces only a quarter of the light of a GN 120 flash (8ws vs 30ws).Those are indeed incredible conversions that lanset does. And it seems like there are all sorts of conversions out there but they all lack a basis for such conversions. GN measures the light output from the flash, again different from ws, which is the rated energy storage of the capacitor to the strobe tube. A 33 watt florescent tube is rated by industry as to give off the same light as a 100 watt incandescent bulb, although the light is very different, and to my eyes, isn't equivalent. If we use the lanset formula as is, that would mean that the light given off by a 33 watt florescent tube is only 1/3 the that of an incandescent bulb. The energy rating of the different kinds of bulbs and the light they actually produce are completely different and simple comparisons can't be don't by putting them through a simple formula. They all differ from manufacturer depending on the material and technology that they use. For photographic purposes, it would probably be best if all lighting was rated with a Guide Number.

I don't have the same equipment that you do so, so we can't make a direct comparison. I'm currently bouncing my flash off the ceiling and using f5.6-6.3 at 1/125 second for 10 feet. At 1/4 power the recycling is almost instantaneous. I'm using a 30 year old Sunpak flash on remote. I agree that having power from the wall is better than from batteries. But I won't buy a replacement for my flash with a strobe that I can't grow with because it doesn't make that much sense to me. There are differences and advantages to the strobe and finding something suitable, cheap and reliable is always the challenge. Thanks for your thoughts. Its got me thinking about the issue a bit more.

Your average speedlight does, indeed produce a substantially brighter light than 10x100w of hot lights. Lets try a different approach. The amount of light from a GN 120 head is stronger than direct sun inside about 15 feet by my math, with a 1/250 sync . Direct sun is about 50,000-100,000 lux in brightness.

to get this power using incandescent light (17lumens per watt) at 15 feet you need 7,000 watts of incandescent lighting (roughly). your studio would cook a turkey.

Here's an interesting article, although its definition of watt-second is inaccurate. 1 joule per second is 1 watt.


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/Produc ... hting1.jsp

Here's a quote:

Many factors affect the actual light reaching the subject and must therefore be considered. The flash systems power pack simply stores the energy in capacitors that, when triggered, release this energy through the flash tube. Different flashes of similar energy storage capacity will produce different amounts and qualities of light.

Choosing equipment solely on its watt second rating will not give a true representation of its light producing capability. The quality and optimization of the design of the flash tube and reflectors contribute significantly to a system’s overall performance.

It is impossible to accurately assess the quantity and quality of a system until the stored energy in its capacitors are converted to usable light in the flash tube and focused by the reflector on the subject. The narrower the angle and the more polished the reflector, the more light will be directed toward the subject.

When comparing products you must take into account variations in manufacturer specs. Reflector angle, reflector finish, flash tube color temperature, flash to subject distance, ISO etc., must all be equal before comparing specs.

Is that one of those hammerhead aka potato-masher type flashes? I've heard they're quite powerful, but yes it is convenient having AC power. On the other hand though, you can't always access AC power wherever you go, so if that setup is working for you I think you should keep using it!

For a beginner though (or even advanced), as this is what the original poster was asking, there's nothing wrong with building a system around speedlites aka "Strobist"-style. I think we can all agree however, that continuous setups don't have the same power as either speedlite or monolight without creating a fire hazard in your house. They can be cheap though, if you're using worklights and that's as bright as you need it. I have seen some very nice work done with huge diffusion panels (aka "tinkertubes") and worklights, so perhaps we should talk more about modifiers??

Nobody seems to be factoring in the benefit of a short flash duration with a decent strobe. That benefit can't be measured in wattage, lumens, lux or candle power… its a huge plus though if you shoot hand-held or anything that moves.

Personally I would say, forget continuous lights. Spend the extra coin and buy a decent strobe.

Well I went there and got the backdrop kit and a 105w florescent bulb. Nowhere near the deal noobclicker got. But I think that the 105w bulb is going to be useful.

Are the fluorescents adjustable in power level?

Even though you can't just compare the wattage, but just throwing this out there as an alternative if you just use the continuous (modeling) light portion of it:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/120984279684?ssP ... 1423.l2649

Flash Output：160WS
Guide Number(ISO100)：43
Color Temperature：5600±200K
Power Voltage：AC100-120V 60Hz or 200V-240V 50Hz
Flash Power Control：1/8-full stepless
Modeling Lamp：75WS( adjustable)
Recharging Time：0.5-2s
Flash Triggering Method：Sync cord, Slave, Test button,Flash trigger
Fuse：5A

I don't know what they mean by the modeling lamp being 75ws, but it's adjustable, and you have the option of using the flash portion if you so decide. For $65 bucks though, it seems more flexible than a fluorescent setup??

Anyways, this turned up on a quick ebay search, there are many such options that are not expensive, although I can't vouch for their build quality/durability/etc. vs fluorescent bulbs...

Actually you don't have to go to ebay for that. gtaphotostudio.com has the same thing. I bought the florescent bulb for use as a fill light. Its a temporary measure until I decide on a 500ws set. The problem with buying some of these lights is you might not be able to get a replacement tube when you need one. If you buy it from a North American dealer, they sell the replacement tubes. The estimated lifespan of a tube is about 10,000 flashes. I could be replacing one in a year or two and if they are not available, then I would have to replace the complete strobe.

Do you mean a 500ws monolight-- aren't you going to create problems with white balance and exposure if you're mixing strobe with continuous?

Aren't the North American dealers selling the same thing as what you can find on eBay? That is, if you're going with one of the el-cheapo no name strobes from either ebay or gtaphotostudio I'm guessing they're manufactured in China or some other Asian country anyways, so you'll have the same availability of bulbs??

I'm looking at 500ws monolight set. The florescent bulb is only a temporary measure for now. All these lights are are supposedly balanced for daylight. I can't find anyone that sells the tubes for the strobes from gtaphotostudio on the internet, although Tony says he can get them shipped in. That is why I may not be buying el-cheapo no name strobes.