Toronto Photography Meetup Group

I hate them. I really do, they're way over-priced relative to almost all the other tech in photography. That is my honest opinion. Making matters worse is that the alleged best tripods are insanely over-priced relative to the already insanely overpriced area that is tripods. I get that we have to spend our money on the right ones because the majority of cheap ones blow, what I don't get is why it costs so much to hold a camera steady. The good ones should be the cost of the cheap ones for how sophisticated this technology is. It would take a guided factory tour with the head engineer and an account to change my mind on this. Tripods are way too expensive for what they are. Heads bother me nearly as much but that's another topic. Anyway... I'm at the point where I'm trying to hold good heavy glass with expensive filters attached for long periods and my old Manfrotto isn't cutting it.

For the most part, the consensus is Gitzo are the best. They are almost universally adored among working pros and dedicated amateurs. They're also really freaking expensive! Outrageously expensive, I'd love to see a balance sheet on them to see what the markup really is. It's a lot I bet. A lot a lot. Problem is, if you want extremely strong and stable Gitzo is a safe bet. I've read this and this and many other Gitzo recommendations and do not take the advice of these sources lightly. Who knows what allegiances these sources have though.

So, without going Gitzo I have narrowed down a few other viable options. The first is Benro/Induro tripods. They're both from the same company, Weifung, from China. Weifung is one of those Chinese companies that rips off designs of other companies at a small fraction of the price. They've done so with Gitzo apparently. Is this skeevy? Yes. Yes it is. Is a markup like I allege Gitzo is charging skeevy? Yes! Yes it is. Definitely a moral issue here, and this sort of thing does influence my buying decisions, but for the price difference between the two products I don't mind feeling dirty ( not the good kind ) for a bit. Reviews of this line of tripods are generally very very good. Eddie_S has one I think and says good stuff about it.

Another option I am looking at is Vanguard, unfortunately there's also a moral issue here. ( As an aside - Vanguard also makes hunting equipment and I have very strong feelings about that which not everyone will share ). But, they do make an intriguing and full featured tripod though. Not a lot of reviews on these yet but the feature list is great and they are picking up industry accolades.

Even though I have a pretty good idea, I have not yet narrowed down exact models but I can say what I'm looking for:

- Carbon fibre
- Articulating centre pole
- Quality twist locks (eliminates Manfrotto as they don't do twist locks)
- Some attempt at portability ( Benro's Travel Angel for example )
- The ability to ge the camera very low to the ground securely

In addition to the Gitzos that offer these features the Benro Travel Angel, Induro CT series and Vanguard Altus all appear to offer a similar product with more features at a much lower cost.

What am I looking for by posting this? I dunno. It's definitely partially rant. Gitzo's competition have not been around long enough for anyone to say "I've had one for ten years and it's the awesome!" and comments from Gitzo owners, who have spent a kabillion dollars on their tripods, stating how great their Gitzo is is rather empty. The phrase "you get what you pay for" in this context really irritates me, sometimes you pay for a name.

So, if you're still with me what are your thoughts?

on PoTN there have been some threads recently about a cheap chinese clone that makes functionally equivalent CF Gitzo legs. Go see what the name is.

This has been a subject dear to my heart for quite a few years. I started off with an aluminum gitzo - explorer model. It wasn't to bad in price, but it was large and heavy, so it didn't get much use - being a pain to carry around. I wanted an upgrade a few years ago and did tons of research of what was the best, the different options and features, etc. I went with a cheaper chinese knock-off - Fiesol, a fraction of the price of the Gitzo, and I have read some of the newer versions have addressed some of the issues I had with mine. But to be honest, now that I actually have a Gitzo the difference between this cheap knock-off and the real thing is readily apparent - but at the time I could not afford a carbon fibre gitzo. My Gitzo sets up very quickly and tears down equally as fast and is extremely stable.

When I knew I was going to replace my cheap-o tripod (after the camera and creek incident) I was debating Gitzo or something else. Induro was very high on my list and to be honest I came very close to pulling the trigger on an induro (especially since they do quite often go on sale). I think the Induro is a really good option, especially since you can have an equivalent one for 2/3 to 1/2 the price of the Gitzo. I think at the end of the day - after having $3000 in camera gear ruined because of a shotty tripod I felt it was worth going for the top of the line and not settle for anything less. Did I need to go Gitzo over Induro (or something else)? To be honest probably not - but I think it was more a peace of mind thing for me at that point, more than an Induro wouldn't be up to the job.

Just an FYI - if you do decide to go Gitzo, shop around, I found the one I wanted at the time cheaper at one place and had Vistek match the price. I think the place was the camera store in Calgary.

Also may I suggest if you are upgrading that you look into going to an arca swiss ball head and plate system. I know its expensive as well - but its well worth the cost.

J.

I believe these are discussions about Benro & Induro are they not?

Edit: we'll see about the arca Swiss thing, it's definitely possible but I find that stuff has an extraordinarily low value cost ratio because the price of the whole setup is obscene.

I guess it's the Gitzo Explorer, or equivalent, I'm looking for.

If it helps, you are more than welcome to try out my gitzo and see if it suits your needs or not (maybe someone else out there has an Induro or Benro you can try out?) I think that maybe the best way to decide - as you have probably guessed already, you can read countless articles and discussions and on will say this or that about the different brands and how great it is, etc. I think some personal time with the options is your best option to help you decide.

J.

Keep in mind with the explorer series, the centre post isn't actually centred, but off-centred, and that will have a slight effect on overall stability.

Yeah, slightly off centre but it provides the articulating centre post I want. Thank you for the offer Jordan. I may take you up on that. I think what I'm really looking for is someone with a crystal ball who can say "that non Gitzo? Yeah, it's fine. It will last just as well for just as long." I've played with the three I'm looking at in varying degrees and while there's no question the Gitzo is the most highly polished I'm not convinced that polish is worth the extra money, in fact I know it's not. But more importantly is that polish an indicator that the Gitzo is ultimately more durable? Potentially but not necessarily. Where's that crystal ball I ordered?

Edit: I should say is that polish an indicator the Benro or Vanguard won't last as long and perform consistently through their lifespan? The answer is still potentially but not necessarily.

The Benro/Induro looked like the best alternative to Gitzo to me when I was shopping a few years ago. They seem like they are about 85%-95% the quality for 1/2-2/3 the price.

I hemmed and hawed for a while about it, but I bit the bullet and bought a Gitzo... Don't regret it one bit. It cost a crap load of money (although Harry's Pro Shop sells them for quite a bit less than Vistek, etc.), but it's the best tripod I've owned, bar none, and it very well may be the last tripod I ever buy.

Slik Pro line of carbon fiber tripods are AMAZING! I have been looking to get the Slik Pro 4 Carbon for a few years now and ended up just getting travel tripod in the mean time and I got the Benro Travel Angel C2691 seen here: http://www.vistek.ca/store/ProPhotoBenro/252868/benro-c2691-carbon-travel-angel-transfunction-tripod-kit-wb-head.aspx

I LOVE IT! but! and this is a big BUT! it is a travel tripod. not a all around workhorse tripod! it is great for holding a pro body with a 70-200 for some shots, but not a whole lot bigger glass. It is super strong for its size, ultra compact with the fold back design, and very well made with half turns on the twist locks to open and close them, and the strong steel hardware.

It you want avery strong workhorse tripod and don't worry soo much about the compactness of it then go for a Slik Carbon or a Gitzo. The Slik do not offer the articulating centre post though... so then I would switch them to a Vangaurd if you really need that as they are also very nice and moderately priced.

tripods ..... love to use them, hate to carry them!

I found the largest difference between high priced tripods and their lower priced competition is often stability and manufacturing tolerances. The connectors joining the different sections of my Gitzo legs have small tolerances and the legs are very sturdy when fully extended, there is no wiggle factor at all. I can't say the same for the Manfrotto 190 XPRO (or whatever it is) that we have as well. I wound be interested to see how the other options you look at do in this regard. For me, that top notch rigid stability is by far the most important factor in a tripod.

I'm actually in a similar boat as you Chris. I've started thinking about upgrading my tripod as well -- purely for an articulating centre column (one I have doesn't articulate). I find with what I shoot I often wish I had that feature. Other than that I've always been quite happy with my Gitzo.

While I agree the cost difference is huge, I'm not convinced that it's just the company being skeevy. As you stated, the competition is ripping off their designs. You have to consider that Gitzo probably invests more into product development than the knockoff companies. Additionally, their manufacturing costs are likely not the same. I don't know where Gitzo manufactures tripods these days, but the company was established in Europe. If any of the manufacturing or assembly takes place in the Western world, their costs are also much higher. Having said that, does all that account for the price difference? I suspect not, I'm sure a good portion of the price difference is just because they are perceived to be higher end and can charge more without affecting their sales.

EDIT: Did some digging around, looks like Gitzo still manufactures their products in France and Italy. Labour costs in France/Italy >>>> labour costs in Asia.

Gitzo is good. My big tripod is a Gitzo as is my monopod and I love them. I bought two of the old heavy metal style Gitzo in the 80s and they are still working. Can't say the same about my Manfrotto from the same period. I don't know what the markup is or for that matter is on any of the tripods. You might actually find that the knock off tripods are making more on margin than the Gitzos by percent.

Anyway, I wanted to suggest that you look at the SIRUI line. They are knocks offs, but seem to be knocking off the Benro so there is a certain poetic irony in a Chinese company knocking of a Chinese company. I picked one up at a trade show almost two years ago at a decent price and thought lets see how it works out. The tripod has functioned beautifully since than. It is carbon fiber, folds up like the traveler (I can't fold it because the head on it is too big), and one leg unscrews and you have a mount plate that turns it into a mono pod. The package came with a shoulder strap, carry bag, two posts (long and short) has spikes in the feet that screw out (not an add on accessory) and at the show they threw in extra pads for the legs so I have on on each leg. The only trouble I have had is the leg joint screws loosen up and I need to tighten them up about twice a year with an Allen key. I use this tripod with a Really Right Stuff B40 ball head and have put up to a 3oo mm on it.

You have seen me using this tripod at the waterfalls events and such. It gets dirty, it has been in the water, it is used in the winter in -20C temperatures and has held up without any malfunctions (apart from the screws mentioned above).

http://www.sirui-photo.com/EN/frm_Progr ... ogramID=40

This is the US site. There is something wrong with the Canadian site (I am getting Attack Site warnings). They are based in Markham I believe and I think if you went to their office you might get a deal.

DG

I have a Vanguard Alta Pro 263AB. I do a lot of shooting with a 70-200 where I require that the tripod holds absolutely still while I shoot and make adjustments on the camera. As far as I can tell, the shots are not perfectly aligned. Something moves between adjustments. Do any of you have this requirement in your shooting and are your shots absolutely aligned or do they move?

Perhaps skeevy is the wrong word, greedy? I dunno, while the environment in which each company makes their product varies I'm not entirely convinced Gitzo isn't sitting on a catalogue of patents instead of doing R&D. How much R&D is in tripods? I highly doubt these guys are at the forefront of composite construction. I'd even be mildly surprised if Gitzo had their own autoclave. Like I said above, without looking at the books it's hard to say. I have recently plunked down a pile of plonk for Lee filters partially on the premise that they're hand made in England. I am sensitive and inclined to support sustainable and ethical production as long as it doesn't kick me in the coin sack too hard. They have a way to go before reaching passable ethics in China for the manufacture of many things, obviously, but there are Chinese companies who are allegedly trying to close these gaps. This post was typed on a Foxconn suicide pad(horrible ions!) Maybe the Benro parent company is leading the way? I have no clue. Is there a Canadian manufactured tripod? Made by BC hippies from ecologically sound tree farmed maple trees? Or recycled hockey sticks cured in blended whiskey and maple syrup? Guess not eh?



As far as i can tell Sirui are also made by the same company as Benro/Induro. Not sure how the line relates overall compared to what they release as Benro or Induro.

I've been slowly going through the massive amount of reviews available at POTN. The results are not surprising. There are many who have gone with Benro/Induro, and a few Vanguard, who are very happy with reliable purchases and are immensely smug about all the money they saved. Just as many who "bit the bullet" and went Gitzo and are immensely smug over the refinement and sub textually the Gitzo name. So far in my reading I have found slightly more people who have had issues with the non Gitzo brands as those who have had trouble with Gitzo. Overall a minimal difference. Is this due to the youth of the other brand or are they holding up? Dunno. I am attracted to the idea of going Gitzo in the capacity that I can trust casting many of my reliability doubts aside. And, admittedly I have my brand whore moments but they're not so persuasive to smash me in the coin sack too badly.

I spent the day actively trying to shoot with my old Manfrotto setup. Granted, I don't have the easiest head in the world, regardless, what a fiddley mess. This is something I've felt for a long time just didn't want to own up to in the face of my tripod resentment. Even so, the potential cost to fix this fiddly mess is a massive one to swallow.

Maybe deciding on a head/mounting system would be the way to go before investing in the legs then? Getting comfortable with mounting and positioning the camera may get you over some of the frustration of carrying around the set of legs.

The legs were almost just as fiddly. It's a symbiotic effort between the two perhaps. Nonetheless that is good advice. For me, although it is something that is being considered concurrently, it's immensely likely to come down to some RRS plate system variation so kinda moot to talk about. Acratech is a current frontrunner for my fiduciary affection but that is no guarantee. It's still in the realm of possibilities I'll go with a default head/tripod combo.

You want over-priced photo gear? Those fricken arcaswiss plates top even Gary Fong plastic seashells! Two minutes in a CNC machine with a cheap piece of metal == PROFIT up the wazoo. They're a kick in the coin sack with a pointy boot.

I am far from knowing what actual R&D any tripod company does, but gitzo was the first - not sure if only - that uses a weave pattern for their carbon fibre, instead of just in straight lines. Also another point that I am unaware of other tripod makers having is how their twist locks work. Yes others have the anti-rotational at this point, but the gitzo will also lock up stiffer the more weight you put on it. Almost like a safety net if you don't. Wind up tightening enough at first (where other tripods may fail and collapse).

I look at it this way, you pay more, but not necessarily for the branding or where it's made, but for the small little details that take something from being just good, to excellent. It's the small differences that really matter.

J.

well, the product does not label it, but if Gitzo is made in old Italia, then I'm pretty sure we're paying for them to have 6-7 weeks of paid vacation every year, with a re-do if they fall ill, and all that.

And if not, then your money is actually going to the management of Gitzo so they can motor on their highways on the Ferraris and Lamborghinis.

But why do we care?

I suppose you are right to be concerned that you are overpaying. I think even if, and it's a big if, Gitzo makes undeniably the world's best tripods, whether or not they are worth the premium over the next best tripod is a legitimate question.

Not having tried 'second best', but only a Gitzo 2541 and a old & heavy aluminium Manfrotto 055, I know this: Gitzo is lighter, more stable, and equipped with a Arca Swiss head, gives me a far more stable platform with minimal pixel difference between shots. When combining images for HDR, and comparing the final image size, the manfrotto gave me a 4-8 pixel crop for the final image. Combining images taken from the Gitzo, I got not more than 4 pixels cropped, often zero pixels lost. To me, this shows that the Gitzo help the camera perfectly still, while the manfrotto, with everything tightened, still managed to droop shot to shot.

Sorry I can't give any advice on 'second best' tier of tripods; I suppose the only way to know is to try out a few tripods to be sure. The problem with trying to get advice here is that almost nobody here has actually tried out a wide enough range of tripods to say for sure. And even if someone online has, you're likely to complain about bias, and draw conclusions compatible with your own ends.

Me, I took the Sam Vines philosophy of boot buying, and probably saved myself some money in the long run.

http://bythom.com/support.htm

Good article to read.

J.

Already linked in the original post.

Edit: While I don't disagree with him about the results I do have an issue with the whole buy the best at the beginning and save yourself hassle argument. It's flawed reasoning. That journey to discovering you need better equipment is part of one's growth in a field. Should young children skip karts and get into Formula cars? Or, an even better car analogy, should run of the mill people skip learning to drive in something relative to their skill and instead start with a twitchy sports car that plans on killing them if they have the means? A sucky beginner with an awesome tripod will still be a sucky beginner. The nodes along the way where they figure out they need these things are important and can not be dismissed in order to save someone money.

I do agree with you on that point, but when I bought my Chinese CF knockoff I already knew what kind of tripod I needed, as you most certainly do, but decided to cheap out to save money and in the long run (well actually short run really) I wound up paying more $$ to ultimately be where I am now and should have been before.

J.

Assuming Gitzo is better than the cheaper alternatives I'd rather pay the Gitzo premium for their employees to be compensated for making a great product and getting an enviable and appropriate amount of vacation time than pad the banks of Chinese executives/corrupt business men while their employees toil away in horrible conditions working in factories that are not held to acceptable environment regulations and so on and on.



Thank you Mike! I read all 18 pages of this thread on POTN about this very topic and at no point did anyone get even close to quantifying the difference the way you have in this post. The word better gets thrown around a pile in those 18 pages but nobody quantifies it like that. An excellent informative post. Thank you again.

Never buy cheap boots. Just get the Blundstones and be done with it! (I say that not having read the Discworld series, I had to look the reference up so if I've screwed the joke up that's why.



And that's the position I'm in now. I could easily go get a small Vanguard kit that would be an upgrade from what I have now but not a complete solution. But finding this point is different for everyone. My stubbornness and cheapness got me along pretty far without "needing" the upgrade.

well, ions, if you've already gotten yourself a cheap-ish tripod as an entry level piece, and you've seen what cheap tripods can do, there is little point paying 'tuition' to see what the mid range equipment can do.

I understand, if you one day decide that tripod mounted pictures are not for you, and therefore the tripod goes to waste, but I think the chances of that happening are pretty slim for most of us here(?)

I've been aware for a long time that my current setup is inadequate for what I want to be doing. It's an old Manfrotto 190 aluminum tripod. I hate the clamps, especially in the cold, it's quite heavy and does not get as low as I would like. The head on it is more suited to video and is a pain in the butt to pack anywhere with all the handles on it. Fully extended it's steadyish with a 24-70 mounted. With the 70-200 mounted it is noticeably less so. It's a pain in the butt to bring places, yet I do bring it, but because it's not very nice to use I rarely do use it. Part of the problem is I have a decently steady shot that I guess I've developed because I hate using the tripod so much. I'm handholding more than I should be instead of mounting the camera to a tripod to maintain a low ISO. I'm losing detail and sharpness because of it. Like I said above, between spending all the money on L glass and Lee filters that's kind of a silly way to shoot.

Bullshit, your tripod is just heavy and head is awkward. That's all there is to it. Oh wait, you also have money.

Well mike I'm fully convinced by your post. So if you ever decide to sell your Gitzo for half price, I'm standing first in line. Don't make me wait too long or I might have to buy a new one. : )

I have a cheap $100 velbon I bought it because it was the stiffest by far of the less than $200 tripods I could find. It still works. I also brought an old secondhand Gitzo. It works better. But not that much better.
My point is that things like smoothness, durability, ease of use and the all important stiffness and damping are difficult to engineer and build into a tripod. Yet we purchase tripods without reliable specifications based on advertising and word of mouth.

Haha. enjoying your monitor yet?
The tripod is light enough that I'm flying with it…