Toronto Photography Meetup Group

Hey guys,

I need some advice. As most of you guys already know, I'm using an ancient Canon 10D. It still works like a gem and I love it. However, I'm starting to think I should invest into a 2nd body. The question is whether to get a 5D MkII or go with the 7D...or to get one at all? I've been debating this myself for the past month and both cameras seem to have really good points. But in terms of being practical and as a newbie myself, maybe you guys can help point me in the right direction.

So...here are a few points that I've taken into consideration:

- I like taking scenic/landscapes and nightshots

- street photography and candids is an art and skill on its own but definitely learning and enjoying it

- events, cinematography and possibly portraiture are areas of high interest and would like to develop into

- photography is a hobby, but if I get any better, I'd like consider turning it into a sideline later on

- EF only vs. EF-S (and OEM's); it's only been 3 days that I bought my Tamron 17-50mm f2.8 and I'm loving it. Letting go of it may be difficult. heheheh

So...yeah...that's what I have. Any ideas?

Much appreciated guys,
Jeoff

both of those cameras are good.

What do you hope to gain by spending the extra money? Would the money be better spent on lights, lenses? Hard to give advice since it's probably your personal choice, preferences on what you are hoping to get.

I still use crop and am quite happy. Every once in a while i wish i could get a shallower depth of field with the same perspective/distance, but since my camera is newer (more features) the than the FF alternatives, it doesn't justify it yet for me.

I told myself that I would only upgrade to pro gear when I made the money from photography to buy it and it worked out well. Start with a 7D, it's more than enough camera to get you going and potentially delve into something more serious. And whatever path you do end up going, I would strongly suggest you start with the lenses first; You'll get a lot more satisfaction shooting on a crop sensor with great glass than on FF with shit glass.

Does the Tamron 17-50 work on a FF? Without vignetting that is.

yeah, save it up for the mythical 5D Mk III, where they will put 7D AF goodness into a full frame sensor camera..

.. and they'll sell it for not much more than the current cost of the 5DII

Now that's the camera we'd all be looking forward to.

Well...what I really hope is to get better at this and at least try to perfect 3 areas. The advice I carry from the guy that sold me his 10D said that, "the body helps but it's the quality of glass and the skill of the person pulling the trigger that makes the image." For now, I tend to focus on those two aspects. More on what I do coupled with the glass that I have.

In the long run, I'd like to turn it into a sideline...even if I'm just assisting and getting paid with experience rather than money.

On another note, some have advised (not from TPMG) that I should get a Rebel series camera as it's an entry level and it's cheap. I borrowed one for a day and I just couldn't get used to it being so light, not enough surface to grip (I have huge hands) and the fact that the functions are not that easy to get to. I'm loving the fact that I can set things with the manual dials on the 10D.

Hey, you make it sound as if a 5DII is a 'pro camera', while 7D is not.

I dunno, on many other discussions, I come across opinions like FF is for pros, and anything else are for n00bs. I kinda resent that. Of course, in part because I can't afford the "pro" gear, but also because I feel that for the hobbyist, it is quite pointless to get "pro" gear when a good crop camera can do everything they need, and more.

I'd agree with you that lenses should be a priority, but I'd also add that skill and artistry is important; there is so much more to photography than fixation on the mythical "Image Quality" and the extra special glitter surrounding FF cameras that automagically makes one an excellent Photographer.

@BaRTiMuS - Yeah...that lil guy on my right shoulder's been screaming at me about that. Don't go pro until it's justified. However, the dude in red on my left says, "5D!! DO IT!!! DO IT!!!!"

About the Tamron 17-50mm, I thought I read somewhere that it can be fitted onto an FF but there will be vignetting. However, the manufacturer's website says "Exclusively for APS-C sensors only".

@mike - I read about this. Looks yummy. Hopefully by then, if it ever comes out, I'll be "worthy" enough to own one.

A 10D?!?!? WOW - and I thought I was swimming upstream by still using a 30D. Good to see you getting the most of what gear you have!
I grapple with the same issues. When I upgrade I'll probably stick with the cropped sensor. I own a 10-22 EFS lens so FF would also require me to buy a few new lenses. I'd also need another telephoto zoom as the 70-200 would be insufficient for my current needs on a FF.
FF instead of a cropped sensor would cost me several thousand additional bucks. I can't justify that as it's just a hobby for me. However...if National Geographic comes knocking a few more times at my door i'd reconsider but I seriously doubt lightning is gonna strike twice let alone thrice.

Hey, at least you can use EF-S lenses. I'm stuck with EF ONLY and what the OEM's have to offer. Thank god for OEM's!!!

I thought about getting used. I don't mind buying used lenses as most people will really take care of them. But for bodies...well...honestly, my 10D may be my first and last used body that I will buy. I was lucky to find a dude that really took care of it. I can't guarantee some dude off kijiji or craigslist will be as forward as the last.

The option definitely is still open.

woops...dbl post

Point taken.

Does size matter to you?

It does for me because I don't care for carrying it around, for street photography smaller and more descrete cameras are actually a bonus, you can shoot very nice landscapes with entry level small cameras.

Is budget an issue, if so the choices are obvious, getting better glass that lasts long time is a better option.


If you are a hobby photographer will not having FF limit you in any way?

Are you a pixel peeper


I was shooting with rebel xt until this summer when I bought t3i, perfect solution that works for me and the camera is not a limiting factor in my photography.

If I was a pro wedding photographer or was doing any kind of photography which would require me to step up the equipment, I would certainly do so, you just have to figure out what works for you

So? Buy a used body on a forum like this where it's not totally anonymous, people know one another a little bit and for the most part, people take care of their gear.

I bought a 5D mkI body off another member here and it has served me superbly for the last couple of years.

Of course, if you can afford it, nothing wrong with buying new bodies + lenses to upgrade from your 10D.

Jeoff,

Take your time and really use your 10D and 17-50mm for a while. Once you know the limitations with that combination, then you'll know what's the next step.

Is the ISO noise a problem? Do you want a wider perspective? Is the focus poor because you do sports? etc

When you say you like taking scenic photos and landscapes, what's limiting you from doing that today on your existing equipment? Is it the field of view? Sharpness?

I went to FF because I wanted wider angles and crop sensor UWA lenses at the time were very expensive. I also wanted the shallower depth of field that came with the larger sensor. The colour rendition and better noise handling were appreciated but side benefits.

I think once you know how your equipment is limiting you, the choice of what next, be it a FF body, a 7D or better lenses will be obvious.

i would concentrate on getting a good-excellent L-glass. there's always another "newer" body on sale when you're ready to upgrade the body. while you can "now" enjoy some good glass. just my opinion.

Haha, I completely agree with you. If I was a hobbyist, I would be using a D7000, D300S, 60D or 7D right now, there is no need for anything else.

I agree with your stance on FF and Crop re Pro and Amateur. It's not a valid way of seperating the two. Personally I refer to the body types, magnesium alloy, weather sealing, etc. This is what I refered to when I meant upgrading to Pro.. because I went from a plastic D90.

If you're looking to buy new gear, glass is a priority. If you're looking to be a better photographer, don't buy gear. There's enough terrible photographers out there with thousands of dollars worth of gear.

Fuji X100.

If you want full frame, you better be able to afford the glass. I've met quite a few people with 5Dm2 bodies and not being able to afford compatible glass.

40D or 5DmkI and good glass. Unless you're a 1) paid professional 2) very serious amateur or 3)made of money - I wouldn't suggest paying the premium for the latest camera bodies. Instead get a decent body that is reasonably priced due to depreciation and spend the money on decent glass that is less affected by depreciation. My 2 cents.

Wow. So many replies with many valid points. It seems to be leading to one thing really. Keep it simple and take my time.

Alright, I guess I'll prioritize better glass for now on a crop and worry about a 2nd body later on...even if it's used. I suppose I should budget in for a 2nd set of lens like the 70-200mm Rhommel suggested. I may not have much use for it now so I'll rent it out in the meantime.

Thanks guys. Right now the lil dude in red with a pitchfork on my left is screaming, "NooOoOOoOOOoooOOOOOOOoooo!!!! /sob"

btw...posting just a lil after 5am...you ARE on here WAY TOO MUCH. LOL!

I think the only way to get proper advice about something like this is by being detailed, maybe we can sticky an outline for people looking for camera buying advice:



Then people who respond can just give honest and educated opinions such as:



Exif data is an invaluable tool to learn from others photos, and guage your own skill and practices when it comes to taking photos. We're talking about what upgrade paths our fellow photographer should take, but not even considering his actual level of skill. Getting a 50D and some L glass is still an expensive proposition no matter how you slice it. I know this is a gear thread and not a photo critique thread, but I feel that it might just be an important part of deciding to upgrade your equipment.

@BaRTiMuS - That's actually a great idea. Hesitation always creep in when I'm buying this type of gear because sometimes I'm uninformed. I'm rather scared to invest into something so expensive because I don't want to buy something for the sake of buying that is all "glittery and magical". I'd like to be able to justify why I need to buy it.

In terms of what I have now, these are my reasons:

1. Bought a 10D because a) I had an FZ50, it limited me to the fixed lens and its configuration, b) because I wasn't sure if I'll get anymore passionate with this hobby so $200 for an 8 year old body is a small loss, c) allows me to extend what I've learned from my FZ50, d) with a huge range of lenses to work with, it allows me to practice on different types of photography.

2. Upgraded from a 18-200mm 3.5-6.3 to a 17-50mm f2.8 because a) the 18-200mm was rather slow with AF as it's hunting all the time (missed shots), DOF is better, ability to capture more light, better IQ.

My reasons for considering buying a 2nd body is well...bottom line, it's a 10D...8 years old with probably a little over 10k actuation. I didn't expect to really like taking photos when I switched over to a DSLR. Now I'm scared that it'll go out on me if I ever attend an event.

Choosing one format to another (FF vs crop) is something I needed to balance. For now it seems like the crop is the way to go for me.

8 years is a long time, but 10K actuations is nothing. To me, that's still considered a "new" camera haha; my few month old camera is already well over 10k. Maybe just get it serviced and cleaned on the inside to make sure everything is in good working order.

Based on what I'm reading, and seeing, I would suggest getting a crop sensor camera, and enjoying your Tamron 17-50. Before going to FF I shot many weddings with that lens and it's more than sufficient for your needs. Then down the road, you can upgrade to better glass if you want.

Like I said, Exif data is a great resource, use Flickr to your advantage. Join Flickr groups that showcase images shot with the lenses or camera you own.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/37412600@N00/pool/

http://www.flickr.com/groups/canon_10d/pool/

When you see a picture you love, take a look at the exif data. These groups are always good to keep you grounded and realize that in most cases, its not your gear that's keeping you from getting great images, it's your experience/skill. And that's a good thing; because you're always striving to be better at it.

If you are considering keeping the camera system for another 10 years then full frame lenses are the way to go. Even non slrs are getting larger sensors in less then 5 years time resolution will have maxed out for FF systems and crop factor DSLR will be a thing of the past replaced with mirror less electronic viewfinders

Yeah, I actually joined those groups. Some people have their EXIF information turned off. There are some however that have it on so yes, I am able to improve on my images based on what others have done.

As for upgrading...well...I've decided to stick with a crop until it's REALLY justified that I go FF. It makes sense like what all of you have pointed out. Thank you btw.

The mirrorless EVF's scare me. I had that on my FZ50. It was an EVF and it bothered me because it never gave me a true representation of what the image will look like. With the EVF, it looked like every image was perfect. Come processing, the image was either under or over exposed. I also had to account for the slight lag between what was being displayed in the EVF and the actual shutter snap.

I didn't say go mirror-less I said that crop sensor DSLR will become obsolete. Already they have full frame DSLR that can be used as either full frame and in crop factor sports mode.

Mirror-less cameras will continue to evolve and crop factor DSLRs will become obsolete even in entry level.

Sure, when we all have died for at least 10 years crop sensors are making money, why bother getting rid of them?