Toronto Photography Meetup Group

Hi all. I know that at least a few people here have taken the leap into large format photography. I'm just wondering if those of you who have jumped into LF (and maybe jumped out) could advise on your experiences and offer any tips/warnings.

I'm thinking of picking up a 4 x 5 field camera (I've been thinking about it for some time actually but saw a decent opportunity for one). I have a medium format system which I love, but do wish it had movements - and I'm looking for image quality improvements and larger prints than what I can achieve with my DSLR and tilt-shift lenses (and an H Series system is out of the question for me right now). I shoot a fair bit of architectural so the movements would be nice- and I'd like to do a lot more still life (where some movements would also come in handy). I'd also use it for other subjects from time to time (though I'm sure I would continue to use my other systems where appropriate).

I guess what I'm struggling with is whether it is a good idea to be buying into a large format system- is the format disappearing, or more likely is it becoming a pain to get gear/film etc.. I could certainly put the money into other things - but I see a lot of advantages to large format for what I like to do. If anyone has any thoughts I'd be grateful.

Thanks!

I shoot some LF with a 4x5 Nagaoka field camera
it is a whole different ball game
the answer to your question depends on many factors:
-commercial or hobby use
-just B&W or also colour
-develope your own or pay to have developed
-scan or darkroom printing etc

like all film, I would say the use is diminshing but there is still a hard core group of users out there

one indication of popularity is the prices for used lenses on Ebay
over the last year or so they have been going up
decent used LF cameras on Ebay seem to hold their value pretty well

for information and to get questions answered
you should go to the large format forum
it is a dedicated group of users with a quite a few professional photographers
among them
interestingly many of them shoot 8x10...

here is the link

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/

Thanks Frank for your thoughts. Did you just get into it or have you been doing it for years? Do you still love it? When/for what subjects do you shoot?

Firstly, this is all for hobby use (I take my hobbies seriously - though I am selling the odd photo, this is more for myself and my own edification - I like the challenge- and really like results that I get with film. I think this would open a whole new world for me.

I would shoot both b & w and colour.

I can develop negatives (b & w only) at home- I would use TIW to process tcolour.

I expect that I would scan the lion's share of my negatives (though I do want to experiment with contact printing etc. and would likely print some in a darkroom- mostly b & w not colour).

I noticed that a few people on this forum have gotten into LF recently (or relatively recently) and was wondering what their experiences have been (ie. oops, this is turning out to be a pain- or wow, this is great! - or oops, I got on a sinking ship).... I love my hobbies, but I'm not a total masochist, and I don't like to totally waste money.

I've seen a number of people on other forums that have just started to get into it (Ie. in the large format forum) but not much after that- I thought folks on this forum who got into it recently might have more to say.

as with any new piece of camera equipment/camera format, you need to determine what result you're trying to achieve with it that your current options don't allow ...

you mentioned that you do lots of architectural work with 35mm and t/s lenses... although a 4x5 with movements will offer you better IQ, most field camera won't offer you significantly wider range of movements (especially with wide angle lenses)... if you want to produce larger prints then you need to look at your entire work flow, from image capture, to processing, to scanning to printing... unless you plan to go significantly larger than 30x40 inch prints then 4x5 IQ may be sensible, if small, it probably won't give you much advantage over MF...


I've used 35mm and medium format for years and used a 4x5 field camera (Crown Graphic) for a few years about 5-6 years back.. and although 4x5 provides a huge advantage in IQ over MF, it wasn't as big an advantage over MF...4x5 requires commitment and planning - ie. schedule/plan a specific subject to shoot, days ahead.. generally not something to just whip out and shot with... for that a modern MF camera is much more suitable, while not giving too much in IQ...

having said that, i've recently started shooting 8x10 (primarily a 105 year old studio camera) for portraiture work so that I can make contact prints (silver as well as platinum/paladium)... that is the ONLY reason I shoot 8x10 - there is no other way to produce a permanent negative large enough to make 8x10 wet contact prints... it serves a very specific result ...

my advice is to borrow a 4x5 or take a course in large format photography... this will give you a real sense of what is required to shoot 4x5 as well as give you a better sense of what type of 4x5 camera and len(ses) best suit your needs...

I believe lots of photographers 'graduate' to 4x5 or larger formats without learning how to use the equipment or having a good understanding of what their needs are, only to buy into a system that they don't know how to use properly, get frustrated and then abandon it...

my advice is to figure out what you want to achieve that your other gear won't allow you to.. then take a course or borrow a kit from someone who knows their camera well and will show you how to use it properly.. then decide for yourself...

I used to work with a 24"X36" process camera...is that large enough for you?

Actually, that camera was designed for photographing for publishing purposes (before desktop publishing took over). An example of a person standing next to one, and holding a negative so you can get the idea of scale:
http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00R/00RQvT-86767584.jpg

The entire setup I used looked like this one:
http://bhiggins.info/page11/files/process_camera_sm.jpg

Although the back of the camera was in the wall so you would be in a darkroom where you could develop the negatives right after they're exposed...don't ask what model/brand of camera it was, I just used it, and I don't have any images from then either..."this isn't history, this is garbage...why would anyone be interested in saving this stuff...anyway it will all be replaced by computers and scanners soon anyways" is probably what I thought back then.

Today I admit I would have like to have some pictures of that old beast...but then again, do you have pictures of all the office equipment you use today that will be obsolete in 20 years?

my interest (and camera purchase) started last September
and I have only shot about 50 sheets of film so far, therefore far from an expert

have also shot and developed 35mm and MF B&W film
my interest was simply to have a larger negative to play with in the darkroom
I strictly do B&W

my primary photographic format is still digital

with regards to what I shoot with LF it has been landscapes but plan to also do some still life (eg Edward Weston's peppers

Hi folks,

Well thanks everyone for your thoughts and/or sharing your experiences.

I ended up taking the plunge earlier today. I ended up picking up a Wista 45sp -a Technical Camera (which operates more or less like a Field Camera but the movements are a bit more flexible/extensive and it is a bit heavier than the average field camera). It came with a 150mm lens and a few other nice accessories. The camera is in great shape- and once I looked at the ground glass, and started to fine tune focus etc. I was in. It isn't as versatile as a monorail, but it is not overly heavy and it is pretty compact (which is important to me)- so I expect that it will serve me well as I figure out a few things. If things work out well (or if I like large format but want more flexibility or image size), then I might look to a monorail and/or at 8 x 10 format (which I think is great for contact prints).

Thanks for your thoughts Ken. I've actually been looking for a course for some time- I recall a course being offered at Ryerson some time ago- but when I was ready to take it, the course was no longer offered. Do you (or anyone else) know of any courses being offered in the city? Did you take a course somewhere? On your other points, I have a good idea of what large format will do for me (and what the difficulties will be)- my questions more generally were directed at the disappearance of materials etc. I have a pretty wide range of photographic interests and see a lot of areas where movements would be an asset (which is where medium format falls short for me)- and the focused planned process appeals to me.

Oh, and Ken, you probably already know this, but there are other ways to create negatives for contact prints from other formats (including for 8 x 10 negatives) than from an 8 x 10 negative- if you print on a transparency you can use the transparency as a negative (I can point you to some materials on the subject if you are interested, just send me a p.m.). I'm not sure that it would be as nice as from the 8 x 10 negative, but it is an option if you have smaller negatives.

Frank, do you develop your sheet film in trays or in tanks? Thanks for the thought on the 90mm lens- yup, that's what I was thinking. For now, I think I'll work with the 150mm ( for some time and a lot of fuji type polaroid film) and focus on trees etc.until I get my bearings and get to know my camera- but a 90mm will be on my list in the short term if things go well. And yup- lenses are not cheap for large format.. but at least you can use them in different cameras.

Mike, THAT is large format- 4 x 5 is for kids... on old office equipment- I do have a really old dicataphone (from the 40's or 50's I expect).... mind you I wasn't using it...and frankly that monster is - well a monster.....

.

you can try contacting Rob at bigcameraworkshops.com. He's in Burlington and offers intro courses as well. sells film and other equipment for the lf shooter

"Frank, do you develop your sheet film in trays or in tanks?"

I have used both the Jobo tank and a Patterson Orbital. The Jobo is a pain to load in a changing bag, so I much prefer the Orbital. When using the Jobo, I just loaded 4 sheets at a time not 6. I wanted to avoid the possibility of the sheets touching.

Both do a good job. Your challenge will be to source an Orbital if that is your plan. They occasionally come up on the UK ebay site.

Never tried trays (no fun doing it in the dark) or tanks (too great a quantity of chemicals).

The other advantage of the Orbital is that it will also 5x7 or 8x10. Have toyed with the idea of doing 8x10, but I want to make sure I really learn 4x5 first.

Congrats on the camera purchase. LF is fun...

lf lenses aren't as expensive as you think. I could get a 75, 150 and 210 for under $1000 easily.

Also, most lf photographers I know don't really use lots of movements. Some rise or fall but front tilt tends to be the one used most and you don't need much of it for most work.

Film for 8x10 , if we're talking bw, is fine. probably won't be finding it in Toronto but it's out there and with lots of choices.

An under appreciated format is 5x7, which some consider an ideal format. Contacts are a good size and cameras aren't much larger than 4x5 and the quality difference compared to 8x10 is pretty well negligible really.

I've thought about moving from 4x5 and 8x10 to 5x7 but am happy for now.

I shoot 4x5 with a Crown Graphic and love it. I do interior, natural light architectural photography (fine art, non-commercial) and haven't been limited by this camera's relative lack of movements. Love how compact and easy to use it is. I have a 90/f8 Super Angulon, and a couple nice Ektar lenses (203 and 127).

I develop my own B&W, negative and slide at home (colour neg and slide with the help of a Jobo CPE 2-Plus). I haven't found it difficult or awkward to load in a changing bag.

Welcome to the club!

Thanks for your comments everyone.

On the development front, I'll need to source the correct apparatus. I was looking for a Jobo CPE/CPP for a while, but couldn't find one for a reasonable price at the time. So Sean, are you able to do your entire workflow at home/studio? Are you completely self contained? I saw a CPE come up for sale locally for a reasonable price, a few years ago but missed it (doh!). Frank, thanks for your suggestion on the Orbital. I'll need to figure out how I'm going to develop at home. Short of using a Jobo CPP/CPE, I've not figured out a way to control temperature and the chemistry at home other than for B & W.

I'm glad to hear that range of movements are less of a limiting factor than one might have feared.

On the price of lenses, I've seen a wide range of prices- I'm not sure whether the prices are fair. One great thing about the interweb- lots of information about lenses. I've noticed that quite a few lenses have image circles large enough for 5 x 7 as well (as 4 x 5). It's an interesting format- though I haven't seen too many 5 x 7 cameras around locally (for sale).

Labgrunt, thanks for your tip on Bigcamera workshops- I did stumble across his site in my travels- do you know him/heard good things? Also, while I seem to be canvassing thoughts, would you mind me asking how you process your film?

They are definitely tough to find under about $400 or so. I was fortunate and got one for $250. Put a listing on Craigslist and start hoping.

My workflow depends on what I'm preparing. Up-to-printing I mostly do at home (I don't do darkroom prints). I mostly scan at home (I have an older Epson 2450 that I got from a guy on largrformatphotography.info/forum for $50), but if I'm doing an exhibition print, I ship the film down to a guy in NYC who has a drum scanner and then print at Image Works.

I've bought 2 lenses from KEH.com and have been very impressed. They very much under-rate the quality of their goods, so even a BGN rated one is in good shape.

I'm aware of ULF digital negatives and have opted to stick with negatives. The quality of the ULF digital negative varies and requires expertise in creating those negatives. I've seen some absolutely stunning pt/pl prints made from these types of negatives and frankly, once you get past 8x10, Conac

digital negatives are far more cost effective, however I'm satisfied for the moment shooting 8x10 negs and learning to master pt/pl printing using these negs...

the one significant (to me) difference between 8x10 film negs and digital negs (transparency/inkjet) is that the silver negs have much better permanence than the digital negs... and given that I'd like to have the option to print from the original negs, years from now... digital negs aren't an option..

besides, I'm not interested in learning to perfect how to perfect printing both a digital negative and a contact print from it... I can make a 8x10 pt/pl print without ever having to touch a computer or printer and that suits me fine .. ;P

enjoy your move to 4x5 and beyond

Conac,

One place I look for gear is keh.com. As someone posted earlier, their rating is on the conservative side. I've never had any issues at all with anything I've bought although one hears the once in a blue moon story about a bad piece.

I used to process my 4x5 and 8x10 film in Simma. Four sheets of 4x5 or 1 8x10 per tube. Sold these off when I got a CPP2 processor and 3xxx series drums. Never felt the love for tray processing.

Keep in mind that the desired Jobo processor will be a 2xxxx serial # motor which was an upgrade and stronger = can handle heavier 3xxx drums. People have used earlier versions with no harm but if you have choice and the $....

Ken, interesting point you make about the longevity of the digital negative. I hadn't considered that issue- I would have just thought you create a new one from the digital file (though I suppose that may be easier said than done). Any chance to keep a computer out of the workflow is always desirable.

I love KEH- I've bought a few of my medium format lenses and accessories from there, and have never been disappointed (other than by shipping costs).

I think I'll be scrounging around for a CPP again, but in the mean time will look for a tube type system.

Thanks again everyone- good to know that there is a healthy large format contingent on this site!

This is a great disucssion -- makes me want to get a Crown Graphic or similar camera.... as I had a Cambo SC monorail camera, and while I liked working with it very much, it was akward to carry around and setup. Still, the camera did produce some very nice images, so no complaints. I sold it back at Christmas time, with the future intention of picking up a field camera.

I also shoot tons of MF, and I have a Mamiya 645 AFD which is a wonderful camera to shoot with.


David

Hey David, actually, I seemed to recall that you owned a LF camera. Did you use it for any of your Millworks photos? And if you don't mind sharing, could you please describe how you processed your sheet film?

Ken, sorry, I meant to ask you, whether you have had luck sourcing your chemicals and other supplies for your platinium/palladium printing locally, or did you need to order from the U.S. (Bostwick or such)?

Thanks!

-Jason

Sourced from Bostich and Sullivan in NM... cheaper to source the constituent chemicals locally but more time consuming and I simply don't have the time... ordered it and had it sent to my friend in NYC and picked it up when I visited her earlier this year...

as far as I know, no one local stocks it...

Hi all,

One more quick question- I'm wondering what kind of tripod head/clamping system you use with your LF cameras (in particular with a field camera type given the similarities)?

With my MF and 35mm, I use an Arca-Swiss B1 Ballhead with an RRS quick release clamp and body plates. I love the RRS system (and I'm sure the head can hold the weight) but looking a this camera, I'm wondering if this might be better matched with a pan tilt head of some sort. Looking online, the Manfrotto 410 seems to be a popular choice.... and the Gitzo G-2271M gets some positive feedback.

Thanks!

-Jason

I just use a Manfrotto 190 with a a standard 3 way head.

I think it is time for a large format meet.

Excellent idea Sean- for my part, I just need to get some film, and film holders- and figure out how to use this camera!

Are pinhole cameras allowed?

I don't see why not.

Hey... Yes, I did shoot a couple of images with the 4x5, but it was limited. I also did some waterfall work as well. I shot mostly slide film, processed at TIW, and scanned on my V700.

I would do the same process in the future.


David

I've got a Pacemaker Speed Graphic with a Kodak Aero Ektar 178mm 2.5 lens attached (customizations done by International Camera Repair last summer)... I just don't have enough time to get out and use this thing, and as much fun as it is to use and look at, I think I would be much better off with a nice medium format system.

I'll be posting a for sale item here soon. Interested parties can contact me ahead of time of course... Just putting the word out. It has plenty of film, loaders (polaroid and fuji, instant and slide) and other bits and bobs to go with.

That's an amazing combo.

RE: large format shoot

If people want, I can bring my jobo and chemicals somewhere (or we can come to my condo at Dundas and Church) and we can develop them same day.

That is an interesting rig. I read somewhere that the lens is a bit radioactive.... I wonder what that is all about. Do you have a photo that you could post?

Thanks Sean for offering to bring your Jobo- speaking for myself, I'd love to see one in action. We've got to make this meet-up happen. Any ideas for a locale?


Also, as I've been trying to source supplies, I stumbled across a couple of approaches/kits for developing sheet film- I thought I'd share:

- a form of dip and dunk system adapting a daylight tank system:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ ... developing

and

the BTZM Tubes (see video)

http://www.viewcamerastore.com/product_ ... ucts_id=36

apparently the 'radioactivity' of the lens is very minor - i.e. if you left the lens on top of a piece of unexposed photographic paper in a darkened room for a few days you might see a faint circular impression on the paper but not much else.

It IS a very interesting combination. The lens is extremely fast and not bad quality in terms of image... Add in the movements available on the camera and it can do a bit of the ol' tilt-shift action. One of the big draws on this combination is the selective focus. This is the kind of setup that photojournalist David Burnett uses - in fact it is nicknamed the "Burnett Combo" as he is more or less responsible for popularizing the combination of lens and camera... He didn't invent it, but he brought it back.

I'm thinking I will give this thing one more go and get out there and shoot a bit - if nothing else than to provide some sample images for interested buyers. I should have something to show next week!