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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:08 am 
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Metrix wrote:
I have a cheap $100 velbon I bought it because it was the stiffest by far of the less than $200 tripods I could find. It still works. I also brought an old secondhand Gitzo. It works better. But not that much better.
My point is that things like smoothness, durability, ease of use and the all important stiffness and damping are difficult to engineer and build into a tripod. Yet we purchase tripods without reliable specifications based on advertising and word of mouth.


If I didn't care about the millimeter movements throwing my shoots off, I would be very happy with my current tripod too. But it is because of this precision requirement that I may have to spend a thousand dollars for a tripod that is just a bit better. It is this little bit that makes a world of difference in the end result of my photos. The trade off for me is between carrying a good tripod, or buying and carrying thousands of dollars more in lenses and filters to do the same job. I agree that it is too bad that there aren't any industry specs with which we can compare tripod performance. If Gitzo puts them out, maybe others would follow suit.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:20 am 
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PhotoLand wrote:
Metrix wrote:
I have a cheap $100 velbon I bought it because it was the stiffest by far of the less than $200 tripods I could find. It still works. I also brought an old secondhand Gitzo. It works better. But not that much better.
My point is that things like smoothness, durability, ease of use and the all important stiffness and damping are difficult to engineer and build into a tripod. Yet we purchase tripods without reliable specifications based on advertising and word of mouth.


If I didn't care about the millimeter movements throwing my shoots off, I would be very happy with my current tripod too. But it is because of this precision requirement that I may have to spend a thousand dollars for a tripod that is just a bit better. It is this little bit that makes a world of difference in the end result of my photos. The trade off for me is between carrying a good tripod, or buying and carrying thousands of dollars more in lenses and filters to do the same job. I agree that it is too bad that there aren't any industry specs with which we can compare tripod performance. If Gitzo puts them out, maybe others would follow suit.


I think we are in agreement If you need it than engineered precision even though it is expensive and you can only see incremental improvements, these improvements may be very worth it for the type of photography you do. Why is a 50mm f1.4 worth 3 or 4 times as much as a one stop slower f1.8 50mm? A Gitzo is worth it if it meets your requirements. I see too many people that have paid too much for what looks fancy but when you use it then it vibrates like an old alarm clock. My advice to beginners (I know this is not you) is to buy an inexpensive but sturdy tripod then after a few years of experience buy the tripod (and head) for your own needs. Tripods make very expensive hat racks. :)

How do you know what is right for your needs is the question? Manufactures advertise tripod but don't normally tell you the most important specifications, these are to do with stability and are fundamental to why we need a tripod in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:24 pm 
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Metrix wrote:
How do you know what is right for your needs is the question? Manufactures advertise tripod but don't normally tell you the most important specifications, these are to do with stability and are fundamental to why we need a tripod in the first place.


We're on page two and no definitive answer yet. :| Although, we're definitely ahead with mike's post.Luminous Landscape compares Gitzo and Really Right Stuff tripods. Also included is an interesting tripod vibration test:

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Test your tripod for vibration!

There is an extremely easy way to test a tripod for vibration. Any laser device such as a laser rangefinder or a laser pointer is all you need. The only requirement is that you be able to leave the beam on without touching the device. Here is what you do:

Set up your camera on the tripod as you usually do. Place or tape the laser device to the top of your camera and turn the beam on. Point the camera at a wall or other similar object that is at least about 7 meters away from the camera. Make sure you can clearly see the laser spot.

Now, make a series of exposures at all speeds from 1/60th of a second down to 1/2 second. Observe the spot on the wall DURING each exposure. If the spot moves around showing vibration during any of these exposures, your tripod/head combination is probably inadequate for that particular camera.

If you are using an SLR in mirror up mode, and you detect vibration on the laser spot, chances are what you are seeing is focal plane shutter vibration, which tends to be much higher than what most people imagine (leaf shutters produce much less vibration).


I don't know how I would be able to do this logistically with the various models but here's a way to standardize conditions and test vibration - set em up and a room and shoot with the laser pointed at the wall.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:34 pm 
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ions wrote:
I don't know how I would be able to do this logistically with the various models but here's a way to standardize conditions and test vibration - set em up and a room and shoot with the laser pointed at the wall.


How about setting up a tripod vibration test event. Get a laser level and hopefully get people to sign up who have different brands of tripods and see how they all fare based on your camera/lens combo. They may not be the exact tripod you want, but as long as have the different brands you'll get an idea. Just a thought. I think real world testing is probably going to be the only way that you will be satisfied prior to making a decision.

J.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:08 pm 
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heh. sounds interesting. However, I think many would be reluctant to find out for sure if their high priced tripod/head setups actually perform better than the lower priced ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:12 pm 
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I guess I should rephrase, how would be easy, making it happen.... uh huh. I think I'd have more luck convincing manufacturers I'm running tests for TPMG and they should send me demo units to work with. :D It'd be worth trying out on my own Manfrotto as it is. I know it's fiddly but it'd be nice to know whether it's working or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:32 pm 
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jordanfaust wrote:
ions wrote:
I don't know how I would be able to do this logistically with the various models but here's a way to standardize conditions and test vibration - set em up and a room and shoot with the laser pointed at the wall.


How about setting up a tripod vibration test event. Get a laser level and hopefully get people to sign up who have different brands of tripods and see how they all fare based on your camera/lens combo. They may not be the exact tripod you want, but as long as have the different brands you'll get an idea. Just a thought. I think real world testing is probably going to be the only way that you will be satisfied prior to making a decision.

J.


There's a technical flaw with his testing methodology, it might be good to differentiate between poor and good but not between good and very good. Direct imaging with the camera of a laser beam would give you a more accurate measurement.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:00 pm 
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How so? Isn't the laser going to measure shake if it's there?


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:31 pm 
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ions wrote:
How so? Isn't the laser going to measure shake if it's there?


If you can see it it will demonstrates shake it doesn't measure anything. To actually measure shake over the time the shutter is open you have to set up an experiment where the instrument (maybe the camera on the tripod) is measuring the motion over time that the shutter is open. Also putting an impulse into the tripod it would be interesting to find out how stiff and the damping coefficients.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:26 pm 
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You'd be better off practicing techniques to minimize shake


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:46 pm 
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Metrix wrote:
ions wrote:
How so? Isn't the laser going to measure shake if it's there?


If you can see it it will demonstrates shake it doesn't measure anything. To actually measure shake over the time the shutter is open you have to set up an experiment where the instrument (maybe the camera on the tripod) is measuring the motion over time that the shutter is open. Also putting an impulse into the tripod it would be interesting to find out how stiff and the damping coefficients.


If you see it demonstrates shake that means it shakes. That's a measure of shake versus no shake. Anyway, if you record the movement of the laser against the wall you will see that movement over time. The test as described will show if there is shake from half a second up through whatever it was he did it to from the movement of the shutter opening and closing. If it occurs then it will also occur at the beginning and end of a longer exposure. A tripod that shaky will also likely be exacerbated by environment. How a tripod deals with environment is an important but slightly separate issue. How the tripod handles environmental shake. But if it shakes during the shutter going then what it does 5-10-500 seconds later doesn't matter a whole lot does it?

PotatoEYE wrote:
You'd be better off practicing techniques to minimize shake


No poo. Sure, good technique is never a bad thing and can compensate for technical issues. Like what? Is this a reference to some advanced technique I'm not aware of. Mirror lockup? Hanging a weight from the tripod if one can? Making sure the tripod is balanced and placed somewhere secure? Shielding it from wind? And so on. If you have something to add that is beyond the obvious please do. In fact a nice post in the photography techniques section going through the basics to advanced techniques of tripod use is a great idea. Go for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:57 pm 
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ions wrote:
Metrix wrote:
ions wrote:
How so? Isn't the laser going to measure shake if it's there?


If you can see it it will demonstrates shake it doesn't measure anything. To actually measure shake over the time the shutter is open you have to set up an experiment where the instrument (maybe the camera on the tripod) is measuring the motion over time that the shutter is open. Also putting an impulse into the tripod it would be interesting to find out how stiff and the damping coefficients.


If you see it demonstrates shake that means it shakes. That's a measure of shake versus no shake. Anyway, if you record the movement of the laser against the wall you will see that movement over time. The test as described will show if there is shake from half a second up through whatever it was he did it to from the movement of the shutter opening and closing. If it occurs then it will also occur at the beginning and end of a longer exposure. A tripod that shaky will also likely be exacerbated by environment. How a tripod deals with environment is an important but slightly separate issue. How the tripod handles environmental shake. But if it shakes during the shutter going then what it does 5-10-500 seconds later doesn't matter a whole lot does it?


Just because you can't see the shake doesn't mean there is no shake. A binary I can se shake versus I can't see shake hardly constitutes a measurement in the analog engineering sense. Take the few pixel hdr translation between shots that was mentioned above. I doubt any eyes can catch shake over the frequencies that are important to the photograph.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:01 pm 
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I was thinking of taking a high speed video of the point the laser contacts the wall and replaying that for measure.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:25 pm 
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ions wrote:
I was thinking of taking a high speed video of the point the laser contacts the wall and replaying that for measure.


Ask David to join and bring his Nikon 1 camera - that thing has an awesome high speed video feature.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:43 pm 
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ions wrote:
I was thinking of taking a high speed video of the point the laser contacts the wall and replaying that for measure.


Better still put a resolution target on the wall and use the camera to take photos of the target.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Then you have to compensate for potential issues with the camera...

I'm sure that the video modes on the 7D/D300s, should I choose to do such a test, will be more than adequate.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:37 pm 
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PDF released by Markins about camera support vibration. I have not read this yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:54 pm 
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ok, another variable you have to control for: tripod heads—they contribute a lot to the vibration damping, or lack thereof, of the final setup.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:47 pm 
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ions wrote:
Then you have to compensate for potential issues with the camera...

I'm sure that the video modes on the 7D/D300s, should I choose to do such a test, will be more than adequate.


Shouldn't be any compensation problems with the camera, considering that's what the tripod is used for in the first place and a resolution target and/or pattern test is a pretty standard test. That pdf you mentioned should give you some good ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:32 am 
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I don't know if this helps, but I had both a shitty tri-pod (that had on it a very shitty head).
Thanks to a good friend I've been upgraded significantly.

I have some Manfrotto thing - not that it really matters.

Why did I want a new one? For almost 3 years I've been struggling with the head on the old beast. It has NOTHING of value going for it. It was too weak to support my camera at a proper portrait frame, it was immensely difficult to get any angle really other than flat landscape. Tilting angles worked great, it was a solid plane, you knew that you were steady to one axis, and it worked great for that.
But over time (and use) the legs started to get stiff and ever more annoying.

Hurray, I got a new tri-pod!
But already I know that my mind was going in the right place with the old one.

The head on this beast is light years ahead of my old one, but after just a few weeks I know these things:It has zero levels on it (hard to frame a particular shot when you can't see through the viewfinder. Stupid complaint? Maybe.), It only has one loosen/tighten knob, which means I cannot realistically leave my camera in place and just tilt it for example.
These complaints are enough for me to go out and honestly buy just a new head/mount system.
The legs work, in fact they work a hell of a lot better than the old ones. So why spend money on them?

Based on the shooting you do, I think you should note some of these preferences of yours.

Do you want individual adjustments for Rotation, Tilt and pan.
Do you want levels on the head?
Do you want a ball head?
Do you want something that is quick to re-adjust (think a trigger head)?

If you can nail down some of those points then you can start looking at heads stat for stat, and rule out the ones that don't fit the bill. And then compare!
If any of the local camera shops have ones you are comparing go investigate and see if they'll let you try.

As for the legs, I believe they are (generally) easier to deal with. If you know what height you want, if you want it to be light, compact, ultra sturdy or what not then you can scout that out separately.
No need to get a gitzo head just because you have gitzo legs :)


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:10 am 
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The gitzo heads that I managed to try out at the local stores (all ballheads—that was what I was looking for) were quite poor quality. I don't know if it's because they have been floor models, and subject to misuse and abuse, but even so, that does not bode well for their long term durability.

A major complaint for me was that you had to wind the tension up nearly to max before the ball stopped drooping. The only other head I have experience with, an Arca Swiss Z1, is comfortably secure at 3/4 max tension, and at max tension, will not budge even with easily 5-8kg of force applied off axis at the plate.

So, ions, another thing for you to consider—what head will you choose to go with those legs?


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:53 pm 
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I've got a short list of heads in mind. None cheap. Actually, I have a very short list in mind for what I'll do when I eventually get the support I need. It's a longer way off than you may suspect given this thread. When i do invest in some support chances are it will really be the right stuff.

Anyway, regardless of how far away my tripod purchase actually is, I'd like to see this thread continue as a resource. We've covered some interesting stuff so far. If I can get my hands on a laser level I am going to test the equipment I have access to just to see what is the what. It's just not a high priority right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:45 pm 
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David du Chemin gushes on about Gitzo some more. The Systematic this time.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:02 pm 
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I have two tripods, both CF; one Gitzo and one Benro, both with Arca Swiss ballheads.

- My main is a Gitzo 2531EX with a Markins M10 and RRS quick release clamp. Awesome stability for the weight. Cost of this combo was almost $1200 and I would not do it again.
- My travel tripod is the Benro 1681 traveller with a build-in monopod and ballhead is included along with a bag. Nice and compact and only weighs 3Lbs. It was $300 on eBay and if I were in the market for another tripod it would be a Benro. It is very close to the Gitzo in terms of quality.

You are welcome to check them both out if you like.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:15 am 
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Huh... Interesting response. Not pleased with the value of the Gitzo/Markins combo eh? Anything in particular or just the usual, valid, inflated price complaint?


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:54 am 
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The Gitzo/Markins/RRS combo is superb but very pricey. The Benro is very good so if I had a do over I would likely pocket $800-900 and get the Benro. I don't use my tripod to hike up mountains or put them in streams, etc... so perhaps the Gitzo/Markins would be more resilient over time.


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 Post subject: Re: Tripods!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:56 pm 
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i use mine for those two purposes you outlined and it cost me $350, does the job with flying colours


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